So, I’ve seen a lot of fanfics about Tina and Queenie Goldstein celebrating Christmas. I’ve also heard that people are using Christian theology in their tributes to Carrie Fisher. When called out, people do a few things; claim that they just wanted to write a nice fic or tribute and didn’t mean to erase the person’s Jewishness, state that the character or person wasn’t really Jewish because they weren’t that religious, or state that religion shouldn’t be considered important.
So let’s talk about this. What’s going on here is Christianormativity. This refers to the fact that those of us in the US live in a society based on Christianity. This doesn’t mean that everyone believes in Jesus; it means that mores and customs are based in Christianity, and that people’s idea of what “religion” is is based in Christianity. It manifests in people having Jewish characters celebrate Christmas because to them, Christmas isn’t a Christian holiday, it’s just a holiday. Everyone celebrates it, right? And using Christian theology to publicly mourn isn’t Christian mourning, it’s just mourning, right?
To understand why Jews see it differently, we need to understand the difference between Christianity and Judaism.
According to Christianity, a person is Christian if they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. As far as I understand it, if someone ceases to believe this, then they are no longer Christian, no matter how they were raised or what holidays they celebrate. They now are just a regular, non-religious person. Since you can stop being Christian and still celebrate Christmas, that makes Christmas not a Christian holiday, right?
If we define religion based on Christianity, the definition of a religion is “a set of metaphysical beliefs about the world” and an adherent of a religion is “someone who believes those beliefs.” Christians look at the world and see many other religions: Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism… and say “okay, I understand this, those are different sets of beliefs that people have.”
But the thing is, that definition of religion is one of the beliefs of Christianity. People from different religions don’t define their religion that way.
Judaism/Jewishness is an ethnoreligion. Being Jewish involves heritage more than anything, and culture second to that. Religion is inextricably tied in, as I’ll discuss, notably in that conversion to Judaism is a religious process that confers virtual Jewish heritage on the convert. Judaism is a religion in the sense that it is a set of beliefs and practices, but Jewishness is about heritage and culture.
Confusing? Okay, let’s break it down a bit more. Jews, before anything else, were a tribe. We were a tribe with a religion, and our tribal narrative is inextricably tied to that religion. Anyone part of that tribe is Jewish. And not everyone in that tribe chooses to practice religion. Judaism – the religion – believes that everyone in the tribe should practice the religion, but even if someone doesn’t, they’re still Jewish. It’s kind of like how your mom wants you to do your work, get exercise, and go to sleep early, but you’re still her kid even if you don’t do those things.
But it’s still not even that simple. For one thing, the definitions of terms I’ve given aren’t clear-cut or universally accepted: A practitioner of Judaism could accurately describe themself as Jewish. Another is that whether someone is a practitioner of Judaism isn’t clear-cut either. The first thing to know is that, as the word “practitioner” should imply, whether you are one depends on what you do rather than what you believe. Which isn’t to say that Judaism doesn’t have a belief system, but again, you can still practice Judaism without that. It’s sort of like how you can do your homework even if you don’t accept the views your professor is teaching. And even with that, there is a pretty wide range of theological belief that can fit into the Jewish system if you’re clever (I once managed to pray the evening prayers, which talk pretty explicitly about an omniscient, personified God, while interpreting them to be about an abstract Force-like God, convincingly enough that I had a legit spiritual experience.)
But it’s… still more complicated! Because Jewish practice isn’t a simple binary, 0 or 1 (unless you’re a Jewish robot, but I think that’s beyond the scope of this post). You can participate in some practices, but not others. You can participate constantly throughout the day, or once a week, or once a year. You can do something by yourself in your house or publicly at a synagogue. Also, Jewish culture is inextricably tied to religion. So you can choose to participate only in the culture, but if you celebrate the holidays, you’ll be engaging in practices that, according to Judaism the religion, have religious meaning – even if the religious part is not what it’s about for you.
So, what does all this mean about Christianity and Christmas? It means that according to Judaism, there is no such thing as a non-religious holiday, no matter how many non-religious people celebrate it. Beyond that, Christianormativity means that Christians see their own holidays as universal, and everyone else’s holidays as Other. But to someone who is Jewish, it’s the opposite! Our own holidays are familiar to us. Christmas comes from Christian culture, and to many of us it is fundamentally foreign and Other. We have a taboo against celebrating it, because of what it represents – assimilation into the majority culture and giving up our own. That perception is changing now, but it is still very present for many of us.
And it means that from our perspective, non-religious people with Christian heritage who celebrate Christian holidays are Christian. We don’t mean they’re religious, we mean they’re secular Christians. Wait, what? But that makes no sense! “Secular Christian” is an oxymoron! Well, yes, intellectually I know that. Which is why I’ve avoided the term and instead referred to “people with Christian heritage who celebrate Christian holidays.” There’s no term for these people because to most Americans, they don’t need a name, because they’re Just Regular People. And in that vain, secular Jews are Just Regular People too, right? Well… many do see themselves that way, after decades of living in a Christianormative culture. But many don’t. Many see themselves as Jewish.
Basically, because of the info I mentioned before, a person can be a Jewish atheist or a Jewish agnostic. And because of the different ways Christianity defines itself and Judaism defines itself, saying “she wasn’t Jewish, she was agnostic” is just as nonsensical – and just as culturally ignorant – as saying “secular Christian.”
So. Tina and Queenie Goldstein do not have a Christmas tree and they do not host Christmas dinner.
And Carrie Fisher, may her memory be for a blessing, was an amazing agnostic Jewish mentally ill activist feminist strong beatiful Space Mom who drowned in moonlight, strangled by her own bra.
If you’re a Non-Muslim and you see a Muslim praying in public, could you please not pass in front of them?
Go behind them, but not in front. 👍
Oh, signal boost! I didn’t know this.
Okay, but also: if you see a Muslim praying in public and they have something in front of them, like a purse or a bag or something like that, you can pass in front of them, but pass in front of that object.
it’s called a sutrah, and it’s meant to act as a physical barrier between the person praying and someone who might happen to pass in front.
Also, if you did this and didn’t know, please don’t beat yourself up over it. Now you know! Muslims aren’t supposed to pass in front of Muslims praying, either, because prayer is communication with God and you don’t want to break that connection.
Spread culture, respect customs, be good people. Simple as that.
Didn’t know this.
Reblogging again
THE AMOUNTS OF REBLOGS THIS HAS JUST MAKES ME SO HAPPY
S I G N A L B O O S T
Reblog forever !
Similarly, if a Jew is saying the Shemonah Esrei prayer (whispered, moving only the mouth, standing facing east with legs together) don’t go in front unless there’s a barrier.
A consequence of being pagan in the modern world is that sometimes you just aren’t taken seriously. I’m not claiming that our religion is necessarily directly targeted by oppression, but in a Christocentric world a lot of pagans still have to keep themselves under wraps and go to worship a god they don’t believe in, and even those of us who can be open about it get treated like crackpots.
I would love to be able to say “I worship the gods of Olympus” without being treated like I’m intellectually deficient. After all, the Greeks were a primitive and superstitious people, even though secular western society has been falsely tracing its lineage to Greece for centuries.
But in trying times, when it just seems like it’s silly to burn incense to gods most people think belong in Mythology for Dummies books, its important to know that these gods were real.
Imagine being ill and being brought to the Temple of Asclepius, and sleeping there, feverish and shaking, and being told of your cure in the night.
Imagine being a bride burning a lock to Artemis before her wedding, hoping that her husband would be kind and her new family welcoming.
Imagine being a sailor near drowning praying to Poseidon and washing up on dry land, and taking a bowl to his sanctuary that tells the world how the god saved you.
The gods were real to these people. They were real to Sappho, who called Aphrodite down resplendent with a word. They were real to Homer and all the poets who begged the Muses to sing through them. They were real to the initiates at Eleusis, who went into the dark unknowing and came out knowing that even in death they would be thrice-blessed. They were real to the people who came to their sanctuaries and decorated them with pottery and marble and art, and who built some of the most spectacular buildings the world has ever seen, just to house their gifts to the gods.
It was not a matter of faith, but of knowing. The gods were real to them, and to us too, they are real now.
I’m a kemetic polytheist and this still resonates with me.
I’m a Gaelic polytheist and this brought tears to my eyes. It’s incredibly touching and a reminder that our gods aren’t just characters in a book or figures lost t history. They are here with us, and are just as important and valid as any other.
[goyische voice] either you’re an atheist or you think gravity is fake and live in terror of being flung off the face of the earth. one or the other
not to get serious on this post but I hate that people unfamiliar with Judaism assume that we have to underestimate god like that. Hashem is everywhere, so why on earth couldn’t Hashem be present in gravity, and evolution, and idk, cellular respiration? small minded! to respect god is to not underestimate god, and to understand that god is present in powerful and complex systems, as much as god is present in simple, mundane things.
and like, Rosalind Franklin was an observant Jewish woman.
The only possible way the original image is a valid question is if underneath it is additional text: “Check all that apply.”
there are only 2 genders
god and science
i guess the reason atheists think that it’s one or the other is because you either believe in science and, yknow, logic
or you believe there’s an all-powerful presence watching everyone and everything despite there being no evidence or literally any reason to believe that that’s the case
and it’s hard to imagine that someone could believe in all that shit and still be logical and reasonable enough to also give credit to science, especially considering this is one major area that totally proves why things exist and why they work and it has nothing to do with some omniscient being.
obviously i’m not a scientist but yknow i did go to school … AND a CATHOLIC school at that and they literally tried to teach us that science and religion could coexist and it was a bunch of nonsense because that is all religion is so? I don’t think I have to be a scientist to say that the reason things are the way they are has been explained whereas religious nuts seem to insist that ‘god created us all and He Is Responsible For Everything’
how stupid do you have to be to come on a Jewish post and explain that, since you went to Catholic school, you obviously know everything about “religion”
the reason i joked about you not being a scientist in the tags is because i am a scientist, and yet! here we are!
i literally never said i know everything about religion but i know enough to be sure it’s ridiculous and many many religious people are often too brainwashed to give credit to science so it’s not really unreasonable to assume that?
it’s really as simply as this:
there are two options
be logical and do not believe anything that doesn’t provide sufficient evidence.
OR
be an idiot and believe in a higher power
One simply cannot recognize the advancements and discoveries of science while believing in a god, because science disproves the possibility of such a being. This is an absolute violation of basic science. They truly are incompatible.
anyways lots of religious jews are atheists y’all and @the-real-persephone are laughably ignorant and embarrassing. also the fact that you claim science disproves the possibility of a Jewish g-d proves that you have zero (0) idea about how jewish people even conceive of g-d
Do you mean ethnic Jews? You completely ruined your argument when you said “lots of religious Jews are atheists”. No credibility. Do you even realize what you just said?
It’s not ignorant. Judeo-Christian religions believe in a relatively new Earth. They also don’t address the universe outside of Earth. Science proves the age of the universe to be far older than these religions claim. So to be quite honest, it seems as if not only did you make a completely idiotic statement, you managed to ignore the basic principles of science that contradict religion.
Honey I’m a Jewish woman telling you that I know atheist Jews who practice and observe the Jewish religion. They are RELIGIOUSLY practicing Jewish people! I know at least one of them is on the board of my Synagogue! I know many Rabbis who are openly agnostic! The fact that you are trying to argue with me, a Jewish person, with the OP, a Jewish person, and with a LOT OF OTHER JEWISH PEOPLE about this is NOT something that makes me look like an idiot!
You say “judeo-Christian” as if that means something reliable and quantifiable that lumps Jewishness in with Christianity. Surprise! Many Jewish people observe their religion and do not believe in God! Judaism is not a religion that relies entirely on faith in belief, and that’s why the above screenshot is laughable. Judaism is a religion of PRACTICE, so belief in God alone does not make or break a religiously Jewish person.
Like you are so completely out of your depth here!
To go over this real quick
1.) judeo-xtian BZZZT. WRONG. 2.) a tiny minority of Jewish people ascribe to young earth ideas. The VAST majority do not. 3.) biblical literalism is far less common in Judaism and many argue that literalism is bad 4.) Again majority of Jewish thought is completely in line with an extremely old universe 5.) seriously our religious philosophers have argued this for quite some time. 13th century Ramban argued that time moved differently at the beginning of the universe before there was substance to be affected by time. When you consider that we didn’t know of the theory of relativity (also from a Jewish scientist!) at the time, that certainly gives us a precedence to understand that lots of Jewish people have assumed that we a.) did not have a literalist timeline in Genesis and b.) the universe was older than we could comprehend in the 1200s and we argued as such!
It’s your ignorance that is showing here.
Why are Christians.
I think that since the definition of “higher power” is being worked through so effectively and coherently, the discussion could use a definition of “scientific laws” to work with too.
I don’t believe that most practicing scientists would even say “the universe is ruled by scientific laws.” That is simply not what laws do. That is simply not what science does. The implication of “the universe is ruled by scientific laws” is that existence is deliberately reigned over, and further, the thing in charge of the universe is our own understanding of the universe?
The question is poorly worded, yes, hinging on a bad and unclear vocabulary – but it’s also very silly. It’s an interesting example of thinking, in that there is a belief that SOME ENTITY simply MUST be the undisputed divine boss of everything, whether it is “laws” or “a god”, this idea that there MUST be a leader or governor. “Something rules the universe!” the screenshot says with airy certainty, as if existence exists to be governed, and the only question is whether personal appeals to the governor will make any difference. As if the fact that existence exists means that there has to be a hierarchy with a ruler at the top. There’s a boss somewhere, this question implies – a scientific senate, a CEO of existence, an Indisputable Answer to the question. “Deity or scientific laws!” – that’s what you get – they are complete opposites, and there can only be one! Pick your master, you have 2 (two) choices… and here’s the catch: both of them are “higher powers.” Because, one assumes, any powers that “rule” the universe are, in fact, higher powers. The entire question is so circular it’s meaningless. It’s an ouroborous, but instead of eating itself it’s crawling up its own ass.
A scientist – worth their salt – would answer – SHOULD answer – “there is no evidence that the universe is ruled by anything.”
If pressed, the scientist could suggest that we have plenty of evidence for how the universe appears to operate, and we are collecting ways to help us understand that.
But those ways, which we discovered, are not our masters. We are not running around Doing Science in the hopes of naming our secret scientific overlords. We are not building a new god out of “laws” and setting it as the ruler of all that exists. Even having a third answer that is “check all that apply” doesn’t fit our current universe, because the first answer is “higher powers – monotheistic religion flavor” and the second answer is “higher powers – fake science boys vaguely atheistic flavor.”
Anyway, the screenshot is a picture of a radio button with two choices, that some people can happily press to feel like they have a tribe. I, like many of the people above, would not pick any of those buttons because they do not describe a working model of the operation of the universe.
If you dragged me and forced me to complete the sentence “the universe is ruled by…”, I would say “itself, probably,” and to further qualify the statement, I would write in front of the question, “I believe.”
About ten days ago, I wrote a seriesofposts regarding the difficulties Jews and people of other minority faiths encounter in western society when it comes to having our holidays respected and recognized. I got a lot of feedback from Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, etc. echoing my sentiments (some of which was absolutely heartbreaking), and I have additionally seen a variety of otherposts on the matter that underline my point. When reading all of the notes and comments relevant to these posts, I noticed a very similar theme reappearing time after time:
“I didn’t take off for X holiday because I’m not that religious, but the scheduling was very inconvenient for my more observant friend or family member.”
Indeed, I had previously quoted former MLB player Gabe Kapler, who once made the justification to play baseball on Yom Kippur by saying:
“I am not really a practicing Jew. It would be selfish to be a practicing Jew on only one day.”
It would seem that many people have been led to believe that observing a Jewish or Muslim or Hindu holiday is cheating unless you are sincerely devout.
Well, I have a special message for those people:
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO NON-CHRISTIAN SECULAR OBSERVANCES
This is important, so I’m going to say it again:
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO NON-CHRISTIAN SECULAR OBSERVANCES
Think of all the times you have been chided by secular Christian friends for not celebrating Christmas.
“It’s not really even a religious holiday anymore,” people will tell you. “It’s just a nice time for families to get together and celebrate.”
Well, guess what? So is Rosh Hashanah. So is Eid. So is Diwali.
A secular Jew might not want to go to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to fly home for Rosh Hashanah dinner to be with their family.
A non-practicing Muslim may have lost interest in regular religious practices, but that doesn’t mean they don’t still look forward to Eid celebrations.
A lapsed Hindu can still have fond memories of celebrating Diwali as a youth, and want to continue on with their family traditions.
There is no written rule that says only people from Christian backgrounds can be non-religious and still celebrate their cultural holidays. There is no law that says only Christmas and Easter can be boiled down to family dinners and fun festivities.
BEING A SECULAR PERSON FROM A MINORITY FAITH DOES NOT INVALIDATE YOUR RIGHT TO YOUR OWN CULTURAL BACKGROUND.
It doesn’t matter if you haven’t prayed in years or don’t believe in God. If you want a day off for your holiday, take it. No matter what, it’s still yours.
With the Jewish High Holidays coming up, I thought it would be a good time to reblog this.
Jesus Christ was a brown Jew in the Middle East, conceived out of wedlock in an arguably interracial if not interspecies (deity and human) relationship, raised by his mother and stepfather in place of his absent father. He may not have had a Y chromosome. He spent his early youth as a refugee in Egypt, where his family no doubt survived initially on handouts from the wealthy (You think they kept that gold, frankincense, and myrrh from the wise men? Hell no, they sold that stuff for food and lodging). He later returned with his parents to their occupied homeland and lived in poverty.
Trump and his administration are xenophobic, misogynistic, racist, fear-mongering, warmongering, tax-dodging, anti-Semitic, anti-choice, anti-welfare, anti-equal pay, anti-LGBTQIA+, anti-immigration, support tax cuts for the rich, support Citizen’s United, want to keep refugees out of this country, want to limit our ability to speak against the government, plan to abolish the Affordable Care Act, and they wrap all of that up behind a banner of “Christian family values.” If you support them, you have no right to call yourself a follower of Christ.
it’s so rare, yet so fulfilling, to see the J-man on my dash
One of my friends is literally the most religious Christian I have ever met. What does that mean in regards to her lifestyle and outlook? She loves everyone. EVERYONE. Unconditionally. And she supports healthcare and education and birth control and everything that’s necessary to have a healthy, stable society.
Your god LITERALLY GAVE YOU A LIST OF WHAT GETS YOU INTO HEAVEN. Your god. Incarnate. In so many words. Very specifically. Why is this list not the absolute centre-piece of everything you talk about?
Like I get not actually following it because he’s pretty demanding and that’s some difficult shit, but shouldn’t you at least be paying lipservice to his DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS? He came down into a body and got horribly killed just so he could tell you these sermons! Why do you spend so much time ignoring them?!
I’m emphatically not an atheist. Like so far from an atheist you can’t see atheism from where I live even with a telescope because of the curvature of the earth.
The reason it baffles me is as a theist … whose patrons don’t actually give point-by-point explanations of How To Be A Good Person. As a theist who does not in fact get a “when the End Comes, I will divide the sheep and the goats and the sheep will be like X and the goats will be like Y.”
Mine very, very rarely give me straightforward, clear, direct instructions. There’s lots of reasons for this, most of which are part of why I’m theirs and not in fact a monotheist in one of the more well-known religions. But okay, so you do believe that this is your incarnate god, who came down to earth explicitly to reunite with you and, via his incarnation, tell you how to act. As a believer (albeit in different gods), the true lack of centring of that part of the holy text baffles me.
This is not me dismissing their “invisible friend” as made up, or any of the other things that truly, an obnoxious kind of atheist does tend to do – because I find that attitude just as obnoxious and offensive as most monotheistic religious believers do, because I myself am faithful.
This is while extending the fully charity and good faith of assuming they really are believers, and that they’re not just falling back on the culturally-dominant way of beating up on other people. Like, okay: I am accepting your faith as being as real as mine is, that you truly believe in and love and devote yourself to this deity –
– so why for the love of, indeed, that god do you spend so much time ignoring his direct, explicit instructions for what he wants you to do? And not just failing to live up to them (they are a very high bar, it’s a hard thing to live up to), but outright ignoring them?
It’s on that level that it’s baffling. On the cynical materialistic level, it makes perfect sense. It’s on the level that says okay, speaking as a believer to a believer: why the fuck do you spend so much time ignoring your god?
Word Count: 121,808 Chapters: 18/18 Fandom:Star Trek: The Original Series Rating: Mature Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings Relationships: James T. Kirk/Spock Characters: James T. Kirk, Spock, Leonard McCoy, Original Characters Additional Tags: Alternate Reality, Religions, Slash
A time-travel mission gone wrong traps Kirk in the past and returns the Enterprise to a different and challenging future.
My Notes:
This is the only TOS fic I have read where I didn’t know the author from other fandoms/parts of Trek fandom before going into it, and at this point, I can’t remember why I clicked on it in the first place.
And I have not once, in multiple re-reads, regretted doing so.
This is a fucking fantastic piece of work, with an immersive experience of the ancient Roman world, and a fascinating potential future. The relationship between Kirk and Spock is well-explored without being overwhelming, and while central to the resolution of the plot, isn’t the primary plot itself. I adore the OCs woven into the story, and each of them is a distinct person in their own right – no one is just a sketch there in the background.
If you’re concerned about the religion in the story – while the idea of it is central to the story, and why certain things happen, it isn’t in-your-face, and it isn’t prostyletizing. It’s still present, and that might not be to everyone’s taste. Particularly if having christianity in particular deeply criticised is likely to make you uncomfortable.
Also – the social criticism in places comes across as quite pointed, and I find myself nodding along with the critics a lot. It feels applicable to the current political climate, in fact.
And final note – the fic itself is in the vicinity of 34 years old, though its posting date to AO3 is more recent. There might be some things in there that do not match up to current research or ideas about history, but that does not mean it is not well researched or written.
Grandma’s been excommunicated by the Holy Roman Catholic Church lads
So I come from a long line of women who go “fuck that I’ll do it anyway.” My grandma is continuing this fine tradition. She’s always been an interesting mix of DEVOTE Catholic and VERY feminist and has talked often about how the church needs reforming to bring it closer to the goal of perfect unity and equality under God’s love. Or something.
Anyway she found herself a congregation of likeminded folk who have already been excommunicated for ordaining a few women as priests. On the announcement that another ceremony was planned for the ordination of another woman, the Church officially stated that ANYONE taking part in the ceremony would be excommunicated.
To which grandma went “fuck that ill do it anyway” so yeah
My grandma is now a renegade catholic priest
I’m so proud of your grandma
please tell her she is an inspiration and her story fills me with joy
If someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not turn him off with pious words, saying, “Have faith and take your troubles to God!” You shall act as if there were no God, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man–only yourself.
You don’t expect to hear a rabbi say “act as if there were no God” and mean not “do whatever you feel like doing” but “recognize that the ultimate responsibility for doing good in the world lies with you.” I kind of love this.
#religion #… I mean if anyone were going to say ‘act as if there were no god’ to mean ‘it’s all on you mate’ #it would be a rabbi (via thetrollingchaos)
“Pray as if everything depended on God, and act as if everything depended on yourself.”
All [that’s to happen] is known, and permission [for human persons to change that] is given. Judaism’s really not big on waiting for God to show up – we expect Them to, but it’s the way your mom expects you for dinner. God’d better show up – He promised – but in the meantime, we have work to do.
There's a Mirror on the Wall 